One of many great things about Flickr is that if you don't like the way a group is being operated, you can create your own and run it the way it "should" be run.

flexible fotography thank you for your feedback!
The group rules for less is more are that the submitted photos are minimal. Both moderators just check that. We do not judge the merits of the photos. But, unlike groups which are defined by the content - e.g., portrait - the interpretation of minimal is subjective. And there is a grey area, photos which aren’t noisy, but aren’t perfectly minimal either. All the statements you quote are about the handling of the subjectiveness of the group topic and the gray area.
I don’t consider myself the owner of absolute truth on the interpretation of minimal. Therefore I appreciate the exposure to the alternative perspective by my fellow moderators.

"the interpretation of minimal is subjective"

Exactly. I wouldn't call some of the photos that were accepted minimal, opinions do differ what is minimal or not. I think you have to accept that in a group like that. It's not like a group "black and white" for example, where rules are very clear. And if you don't like the way this group is operated, well, you can leave it any time, no one is forced to stay here. There are other 'less is more' groups with no or little moderation where photos can be posted.

flexible fotography:
y'mean like "inconsistency is the hobgoblin of small minds"? are you seriously offering this excuse? it's as if a dictionary had different definitions of words published in different editions. or 2 umpires can't agree on a call.

Wow, ok. This is how we chose to run this group. Feel free to run your groups as you see fit.

Wouter Rietberg:
i did offer a suggestion.

mag3737:
tsk. i thought this is a discussion forum. this sounds like a "nicer" way of saying like it or leave.

As was discussed before in this very thread, there are groups with rules that can be more clearly defined than others, e.g. Vertical photos, Photos taken with a Nikon, Monochrome photos, etc.

Minimalism is not so cut and dry.

Even the groups that sound clearly defined, such as Black and White Photography can be understood in different ways: totally desaturated photos without any color vs. photos shot on b/w film, even if toned to sepia...
Or Catchy Colors: what catches me is not necessarily what catches you...😆

gr1234:
sheesh, another like it or leave comment; you guys sure are touchy. can i stay and continue discussing?
i think it comes down to a philosophical choice: do you want the group to have a strict or liberal interpretation of minimal? do you want the group to be exclusive or inclusive? answers to these questions will inform whether you boot a photo or accept it.

Indeed, and is understandable that admins who made that choice are not too open to modifying it every time someone's photo got rejected.

Viejito:
sorry, let me clarify: unless it definitely isn't part of the group description, it stays.
my point is i like to be more open than closed to a photo.

and, btw, one group i moderate is a minimalist group.

Viejito:
Sr Viejito, it's exactly the opposite: if you have your choice clearly defined it doesn't need altering.
i don't think there's anything wrong in simply asking why a photo was rejected. and if the group moderators have their ducks in a row (philosophy in alignment) there's no problem simply explaining the reason for any rejection.

"do you want the group to have a strict or liberal interpretation of minimal? do you want the group to be exclusive or inclusive? answers to these questions will inform whether you boot a photo or accept it."

I think what you're not getting is that answering those specific questions, even very thoroughly, does nothing to remove the inherent subjectivity and ambiguity of the decision regarding something being "minimalist" unless they just adopt a complete "anything goes" criteria, which they clearly don't want (and neither do I, for what it's worth).

Heck, I have enough trouble deciding what is or isn't a landscape photo in a group I moderate. I wouldn't dare touch a "minimalist" group. It'd drive me crazy, and seems to attract people with incredibly strong opinions on specific photos, but no ability whatsoever to translate that into consistent, reasonable, general guidelines that would would satisfy their desire for consistency

JK Nelson:
actually, it's exactly the opposite: if your group philosophy is strict and exclusive, then grey area shots will get booted. otoh, if your ethos is liberal and inclusive, grey area photos should be admitted. having a clear ethic makes decisions easier.

and btw, i haven't *ever* had anyone question a photo that i booted in more than 2 years that i've moderated.

That may be because the only discussion started this year in your minimalism group was from someone thanking you for using his photo as a group cover...😆

Lots of people, myself included, just take the rejection of a photo by a group in stride and do not give it another thought.

Others immediately open a thread in the discussion area of the group whenever one of their photos is rejected, or even if it is in the group but they were unable to find it there...

I notice a lively discussion here. Several people are chipping in. Thank you very much!
Less Is More is a large group, with about 100k members and not a small community of about 1000 interested parties. On that member base of Less is More there is no implicit consent on what the group should be like. Judging from the submission, many members of this group either have no understanding of minimalism or don’t care about it but see any group as another dumping ground for their photos. The majority of submissions have no relationship to the topic of this group. Without a common understanding of the group‘s objective, moderation is a different thing than for a small group for which moderation is a correction of the odd mistake by one of the group members. In those cases the rejection is easily understood and accepted. Being liberal on the interpretation of the group topic is easy, the few obvious outliers are rejected. For Less Is More, the majority of the submissions aren’t in any form related to the concept of minimalism, however one considers the gray area, there will be multiple submissions in the gray area of the gray area. Being liberal on admission doesn’t overcome the issue of subjectivity.

"i think it comes down to a philosophical choice: do you want the group to have a strict or liberal interpretation of minimal?"

I think it often comes down to a feeling of wounded vanity when a photo is rejected. Does this mean I'm being touchy again?

In my opinion, that's exactly what we're doing. We try to have a liberal interpretation of minimalism, and by accepting/rejecting photos on different interpretations, that makes the group more inclusive than just adhering by a rigid set of rules.

sheesh, another like it or leave comment; you guys sure are touchy. can i stay and continue discussing?

No need to get all passive-aggressive.

Wouter Rietberg:
not being psychological just facetious ;-)

a.cheerful.texas:it's not a creative approach if you have to squeeze yourself into a tight corset.

Frankly, I could care less that these were rejected. They were accepted in much better minimalist groups and received well.

But the admins need to take a hard look at who among them is the rogue member who thinks they know what a minimalist photo is.

In a word, they're clueless.

One of my photos was also rejected today. These things happen. I wouldn't call the mod clueless. Minimalism lies in the eye of the beholder, just like beauty.

Tom Freda I am sorry, that your photos were rejected. The second one, I consider a showcase example of a minimalist composition. All it takes to have some compository tension and nothing distracting. This is a perfect example of less is more.

Actually, no it isn't. It's very distinctly defined:

minimalism
noun [ U ] art, architecture, theatre & film specialized
a style in art, design, and theatre that uses the smallest range of materials and colours possible, and only very simple shapes or forms

" the smallest range of materials and colours possible"

But what is the smallest range of colours? Two? Three? For example in the photo above that was rejected there's black, white, green, red and yellow. Is that still minimalistic? The other photo is just black, grey and white.

"But the admins need to take a hard look at who among them is the rogue member who thinks they know what a minimalist photo is."

yes, minimalism can be clearly defined. but in any judgement-oriented selection there will always be variations in opinion. the task is to have those variations be along the same lines rather than be in opposition. if one mod rejects a photo another mod shouldn't accept it; that is in opposition rather than agreement. like mommy saying OK to a kid when daddy says no. that is the idea behind my plea (above) for more clearly defined group philosophy.

zeh.hah.es.: Thank you. I accepted your invitation on that image and added it to the pool. I also accepted your invitation to another image to a different group and added it as well.

However, I then noticed all the AI-generated images unethically and deceptively posted as "Content type: Photo" in both groups and immediately deleted them.

AI is not photography and the results of the AI apps that produce them are not photos.

Here's the result of my search with "Midjourney," all of which I can see did not, I should add (as Flickr advises), correctly post them as "Illustration."
www.flickr.com/search/?group_id=42097308%40N00&view_a...

So sorry, I do not join groups that allow AI. I will be leaving the group shortly. If you decide to ban AI from the group (as many other groups are now doing), feel free to invite one of my images again. - Thanks

Tom Freda I have invited one of your photos to one group. The second invite must have been by someone else. The group I invited your photo to, should not be poluted by non-photos (illustrations, ai, or similar).

zeh.hah.es.:

Are you saying that this group should not be polluted with AI?

Because the search that I did (in my above comment) did indeed show many AI images. And that's just searching with one search term "Midjourney."

As of today, this group also has in-game "photography" on the front page, clear from the title and tags

sianmatthews:

I noticed that, too. Also not photography. It's just a screen-grab from a computer game. It, as well as AI and Second Life, do not belong in a group with photography created by a human and a camera.

Quite so, it should be excluded automatically but it is mis-classed as a photo, hence slipped in - I imagine the same applies to the AI...

Tom Freda no, i am saying that it wasn’t me inviting your photo to that group.

view [ + ] finder:
Quite so. 😞

OK, so let me see if I have this correct. You allow AI in this group?

This group is not meant for AI, illustrations and other non-photos. But, we do not systematically check.

Here, I checked for you and these are all AI, done with Midjourney, the most common AI app.

www.flickr.com/search/?group_id=42097308%40N00&view_a...

view [ + ] finder:

30 photos of 110'000 that seems to be a serious issue you have identified. The pool seems to be polluted by those ;-)

zeh.hah.es.:

110,000 photos going back what, 19 years? AI has only been a threat to photography for the past 1-2 years.

The good news is that for that reason, it's easy to purge it now before the numbers get high.

I also only searched using "Midjourney." If you like, I'll search again with different names.

Most of these using "AI" to search are AI.

www.flickr.com/search/?group_id=42097308%40N00&view_a...

view [ + ] finder:

you might want to spot check through those results. there are indeed ai results included, but that search has a looooot of french langauge captions and real photographs using the tag "no ai" that are coming up as false negatives. of the first few rows (a dozen photos are so), 2 are indeed ai, but 10 are either french or use the "no ai" tag. flickr search isn't as sophisticated as modern search engines and just returns results that include the text "ai".

a.cheerful.texas Thanks. Yes. That's why I didn't say they were all AI. The search was only for results with AI in the metatags. They have to be individually checked before deleting.

I run 5 groups and AI is banned in all of them. Of the unmoderated ones, I do a check every week and apply the same search and delete formula.

Tom Freda you run your groups as you like and we run ours as we do. Please stop smart arsing.

a.cheerful.texas:

Not sure how to add a comment, so I'll just reply to this. Yes, I don't understand why my photos are rejected. I see something, think ah yes, that reminds me of a photo of my own, but mine is rejected. I give up.......

Hi, I tried to post a picture
It has been rejected.
Is it possible to know why ? (Maybe not the best photo ever but to be sure I understood the rules)
flic.kr/p/2qGFDH4
Thanks

antoine.mougenel:
The photo admission threshold is flexible (and deeply unfair according to some). The culling depends on who's the active moderator, his/her/(pronoun of choice) mood, the amount of images sitting in the queue, the moon phase, etc.


About this specific picture, I was the mod to reject it. It wasn't the case of breaking any rule, it's just that in my opinion it's not minimalistic enough. There's too many branches/leaves, too little negative space.

I do see some other promising images in your photostream, from a 'Less is More' perspective. So please keep submitting images you feel/hope/think/demand should be part of the group pool.

Tanks for the answer
I'll do my best (tryin to search a different approach for my pictures, mostly wildlife portraits till now)

view [ + ] finder:
I agree. I feel like anytime i have ever submitted a photo that i thought would be good for this page, it gets rejected. Yet when i take a look at this page i see some very obvious non minimalistic photos and i just get confused how they get accepted.
oh well. Ill just submit future stuff to an actual minimalism group.

" when i take a look at this page i see some very obvious non minimalistic photos and i just get confused how they get accepted"

That's my experience too. What is accepted very obviously depends on what the mods like or not so I keep on trying here to keep the mods occupied.

Gavin Minera:
"I feel like anytime i have ever submitted a photo that i thought would be good for this page, it gets rejected."

But, you have recent photos in the queue:
www.flickr.com/groups/minimally_less_is_more/pool/1350540...

Forget about it...many group admins don't follow their own battery of rules...it's just they sometimes like to reject images (that "are" within their stated requirements for posting) on a whim to get that pretentious rush of power while ingesting caffeine.

Just post it in a group that doesn't enjoy mitigating punishment here as they have nowhere else to do it...ha!

Aperture Therapy:

Do you ilke to rant for the sake of it?

Bart Böeckler sorry, my previous reply wasn’t really helpful. Do you have a concrete complaint, you‘d like to address or can you provide a concrete example for a general complaint?

I wonder if there is a way to mute these notifications. I like the group, but this discussion isn't my favorite part about it.

nathan_rank:

There is: click on the ... three dots to the right of the notification.
"Mute replies in this discussion" is one of the options.

thanks! Whew that's a relief!

nathan_rank
I like the group, but this discussion isn't my favorite part about it.

Same here ;-)

He clearly was not talking to you.
Those photos belong to the person he was talking to.

dear view [+] finder, sorry but you are incorrect on both counts:
Wouter Rietberg was replying to Gavin Minera, not to you; and the post is still up. eleven posts above this one, you will find this:

Wouter Rietberg Posted 16 days ago Edited by Wouter Rietberg (moderator) 16 days ago
Gavin Minera:
"I feel like anytime i have ever submitted a photo that i thought would be good for this page, it gets rejected."

But, you have recent photos in the queue:
www.flickr.com/groups/minimally_less_is_more/pool/1350540...

www.flickr.com/photos/caoimhinbarr/53930660722

I had this one rejected 111 way too much happening in it I guess :)

renelaman724:

It was probably rejected because it is not a photo?
Group "additional info" clearly states that only photos are allowed.

Just my guess!

/Jon

Caoimhin Snap: I haven't rejected that photo, but, the background in this photo is noisy by the contours of the broken color transition.
The line at the bottom left is distracting as well.

renelaman724:

It hasn't been me, rejecting that image, but I can understand that my colleagues rejected it. It looks like an image of a complex object and not as a composition in which the background is part of the overall thing. In addition, it isn't a photo. And LiM is a group for photography.

zeh.hah.es.:

Thanks for the feedback, I have removed the mountain as this wasn't the intended group for the photo, but I can see how this would be distracting, the testure of the photo is noisy I agree which, in my opinion compliments the shot.

renelaman724:

Photos are made with cameras, not with blenders...😉

Hey photographers, just wondering why this photo got rejected. Constructive criticism is welcome :)

AlessandroSalza:

You have several more recent photos with much simpler lines and less going on in the photo, which in my humble opinion have a much greater chance of being accepted than the one above.
This one was.

Alessandro Salza I have rejected that photo. The walls with all the shadows and contours are just noisy.

Hi i just wanted to say it's fine by me that admin filters photos . But it would be nice and even polite if or when a photo is refused that they give the reason why .

Jhon Smith's Photo corner:
yes, 'twould be nice but...

2 things: first, it would take alot of time, especially for a group as large as this one. but mainly there simply isn't a process on Flickr to do that. only way would be to write a comment for each photo, which, obviously, would take even more time. after all, we're all volunteers here.

Jhon Smith's Photo corner with a high probability, it was me who rejected your photo. On the one hundred plus photos I was looking at last night, I cannot remember individual ones. Looking at your stream, I see you are into flower photography. This group is about a composition style which is minimal. A photo of a flower with an uneven background is not minimal.

Hello again . Mine is not to complain .Abode understand to take better photographes

I have only been a member for a short period and you won't have seen any of my photos as they have all been rejected.I really can't figure this group requirements out - it seems that there are no real guidelines, just the whim of an individual or two.

Bob Jenkin hi Bob, the selection of photos for this group is about minimalist compositions. The image space is mainly cover by uniform areas and very limited parts of the image space pop out of that.
The interpretation, whether something is complaint is the whim of two moderators, me and another active moderator.

"the whim of two moderators"

I think acceptance depends on who's on moderator duty. Some photos that are accepted are really minimalistic imo, like this one: www.flickr.com/photos/wrieselbach/54497664527/in/pool-min...

Others less so, like this one: www.flickr.com/photos/tssssssss/46164761872/in/pool-minim...

I find that rather noisy with different structures and patterns. There are others I would not consider really minimalistic, I think that's what's puzzling for someone who wants to make a contribution. You don't really know what is expected.

gr1234:

Thank you for raising your concern and suggesting two example pictures for further elaboration of the decisions. First of all, it was me who has accepted both of these. And I agree with you that the first one is minimal without doubt and that the second one requires more justification.

For the second photo, the image consists of three parts: the stairs, the beach and the water. The stairs cover about one fourth of the image space and are very structured and that part has high contrasts. The beach is the largest part of the picture, but not much larger than the other two. This part is very homogenous. The third part of the picture, the water, has a texture and isn't even. The structures within this part of the picture are on a small scale and the sand shining through repeats the beach part of the image. The stairs clearly strike out against these two parts. I do perceive beach and water as calm negative space in this composition. I was hesitating on this photo before accepting it into the group pool, though.

zeh.hah.es.:
I mean let's cut through all the crap lol. The second photo (beach one) is not minimalist. At all.

Steve Mudd I have no issue that you strongly disagree with, but you shouldn’t insult people by your language.

I wouldn't call your explanation crap, but I don't find it very convincing. Some months ago you rejected a photo by Allesandro Salza that also consists of three parts and which I find less noisy than the one you accepted recently. It's your group and you can accept photos you like, but submitting a photo is a bit like entering a lottery, one may be lucky but it depends on whether you like the photo or not.

gr1234 Thank you for your feedback. I can understand where you are coming from.

This kind of discussion is unavoidable in groups about something imponderable that cannot be unequivocally delineated, unlike e.g. Square Photos, where a photo of 2048x2046 pixels simply does not qualify, though it does look square...

Even in black & white groups there is trouble with those who want to include anything monochrome, because when they were young, sepia photos were made with black & white film, and books about b/w photography included them...😎

www.flickr.com/photos/120007933@N05/54507082088/in/datepo...

First post, only joined yesterday, first photo rejected? I see similar pics in the group but mine was rejected. To learn I ask why. thanks.

I can see why, but it's not up to me to elaborate on it.

СВЕТЛОПИСИ И ХОДОЧАШЋА:

Then private message me please, how do I learn if no one is able to say.

Mark Freeman Photography:

Lots of elements cramped within your fine photograph. Groups, forms, lines, colours, tones, surfaces, geometry, texture with fine detail, all in the frame. One could even say it's a little bit busy, "competing with itself". All fine to me, interesting and noteworthy, but I know from experience that the administrator of this group wants simplicity and nothing but brutal simplicity. Start from scratch and force yourself to keep it simple. In the beginning it will be difficult, but as you progress you'll note that it builds up in power that way. If you don't succeed, dump it in any other group, but it's a good study to try hard to keep it as simple as possible. And this group is an excellent trial for it.

Hi Mark,

an interesting photo for the debate, whether something is minimal. In this case, the catchy colours let the composition flip to the non-accepted side.

zeh.hah.es.:

But the funny thing is the catchy colors were real. Sun setting through misty rain.

Ten minutes later the pinks and purples turned to dark blues and grey. At that point i remembered i had a long drive home along windy roads in the dark and drizzly rain. lol

This is the photo taken ten minutes later and the colors have just about gone before I headed home.

www.flickr.com/photos/120007933@N05/54507730345/in/datepo...

gr1234:

Very true.

Periodically I send a photo to your group, and occasionally it gets accepted. But when I look at the current top page and compare it to this photo of mine that just got rejected, I'm left scratching my head. This one is far more "minimal" than more than half of the ones that got accepted. It's impossible to decipher acceptance standards by looking at the photos in the pool. I understand that any group with set standards will be somewhat subjective, but this group is unusually mysterious.

Cheryl Molin sorry Cheryl, the background in your photo is uneven and attracting a lot of attention. That isn’t minimal.

What about that photo then that was accepted? Imo the uneven background also attracts a lot of attention.
www.flickr.com/photos/203248146@N07/54712392262/in/pool-m...

I agree, Cheryl's photo is much more suited. I have seen many photos with complete backgrounds.
www.flickr.com/photos/garydunnett/54709036141/in/pool-min...
www.flickr.com/photos/136396335@N04/54711626616/in/pool-m...
www.flickr.com/photos/caseyimaging/54714241958/in/pool-mi...

"The great thing about minimalism is that it's definition changes depending on how I'm feeling on a particular day"

-The Mods

Keep in mind that this image somehow was accepted lol

flickr.com/photos/96219917@N03/53978102474/in/pool-minima...

Oh dear!

Please do not mix up quality of a photo and the question whether it is in the composition minimal (if I would start taking the "more" in the group name serious, I would admit only one fourth of the photos currently in the photo pool.