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This collection of panoramic images, seen in the top two rows of our pool, represents a sampling of the street photography of Ben Roberts.
The images aren't from a specific project, but have been pulled together from 4 years of sporadic shooting on the streets with a Hasselblad X-Pan camera. Ben is an avid, experienced photographer and longstanding member of HCSP.
In addition to the gallery images Ben has provided us with some of his thoughts on his photographic journey:
The Streets Are My Training Ground
An essay by Ben Roberts
When I was younger, I was really into sport, specifically a little known sport called Orienteering. Although it has relatively low participation compared to say football or tennis, the standard of competition at the top end of the sport is fierce. For those of you who don't know what orienteering involves (and I'm guessing that's quite a few of you), it's effectively a navigation race through harsh terrain - forests, mountains, marshes and moors. Each competitor must find their way between set points using a map and compass. To compete in the upper echelons of this sport, not only do you have to be able to run fast (the top guys can run 10km on the track in around 30 minutes) but you need to be able to navigate while still running at speed. To prepare myself for competitions I was constantly training - be it running, circuit training, or doing navigation exercises in terrain to perfect my map reading.
How does this relate to my photographic practise? Well here's the thing - I feel like I need to 'train' to keep myself honed for photography, and the streets are my training ground.
I developed an interest in street photography while I was travelling through China and SE Asia in early 2004, and while my early efforts were pretty lame, i continued to make work on the streets throughout two years studying photography on the south coast of England, sometimes travelling to London for a couple of days to shoot, and on occasion making short journeys to Madrid or Barcelona to immerse myself in the vibrant streetlife and great light that can be found in Spain. However, whereas 2 years ago a good part of my portfolio was dedicated to candid street photography, now there is not a single image in my 'book' that is from this genre. but I still shoot street once or twice a month to keep me on my toes.
I've made 4 trips to Spain to make photographs in the last 4 years. A short review of the results of these trips perhaps shows how shooting on the streets has informed my photographic practise, but also how the emphasis in my work has shifted as I have become a more informed and thoughtful photographer, as opposed to the less focussed but perhaps more impulsive photographer that I was back in 2004.
________________________________________________________________________
Barcelona, September 2004

Barcelona, September 2004

Madrid, May 2006

Madrid, May 2006

So my first two visits to Spain were spent walking the streets for hours, trying to capture 'decisive moments', looking at how light worked, finding out about apertures and shutter speeds and zone focusing – building up an understanding of my equipment and learning how to work quickly and efficiently. I carried on practising these techniques back in England, but at the same time I was starting to question the value of these images; I felt that I was ultimately just collecting tokens, medals. Although at a surface level some of the images were attractive, there was no story or thought process, and ultimately they didn't sit together as a body of work.
What changed for me? It was a combination of factors really: First of all I had a couple of really excellent tutors at college who introduced me to amongst others Mitch Epstein, Alec Soth, Joel Sternfeld – photographers who seemed to have an ability to construct and sequence photographs in an almost lyrical fashion. Secondly, I began to network (on a regular basis via the internet) with a group of photographers who like me were inquisitive, hardworking and willing to share ideas, inspirations and discoveries. This network has since been like a second college for me. Third, I started working as an assistant and researcher for documentary and portrait photographer Zed Nelson – being able to observe how he worked on a shoot (from conception to execution) was particularly valuable. Finally, I took the opportunity in London to undertake a variety of different assignments; in the last two years I have shot fashion look books, weddings, live music, band promos, festivals, office parties, interiors of hotels and bars, a poster for a feature film, corporate portraits, a fetish club, dog racing, and rugby, football and cricket fans. I'm convinced that I can take something positive away from every assignment that I get, and apply it to my personal practise in some form or other. Plus shooting such a diversity of jobs allowed me to apply my techniques from street photography in different environments and contexts.
I knew that I wanted to start making images that were more contemplative in nature. On my next two visits to Spain, in the autumn and winter of 2007, the work that I was producing reflected this. Although I didn't completely neglect the more traditional street aesthetic, I found myself shooting more landscapes and more finely structured images.
Granada, September 2007 – from the series 'The Brick Business'

Granada, September 2007 – from the series 'The Brick Business'

Barcelona, November 2007 – from the series 'The Brick Business'

Barcelona, November 2007 – from the series 'The Brick Business'

Granada, September 2007 – from the series 'The Brick Business'

Granada, September 2007 – from the series 'The Brick Business'

In some ways, my methods of working remained faithful to my previous visits – many miles of walking with my camera. Many of the skills that I had picked up from the shooting in the street were being used – an understanding of compositional elements and a habit of scanning the landscape around me in an effort to see as much as possible and pick up on small details that could make for a better image.
My viewpoint on 'Street Photography' now is still slightly confusing for me, but I am getting comfier with the role it plays in my own professional practise. Shooting street keeps me in 'photographic fitness' for the more important projects that I am working on. Having a good eye for the moment, and keeping my instincts fine tuned to react to that moment is of great importance when shooting portraits, while understanding light and composition has been of great benefit in all my work. However, while I will still go out and shoot on the streets (almost without any purpose) once or twice a month, the resulting images will add to little more than a 'greatest hits' collection without any real coherence as a body of work. This is one of my big problems with 'street photography' as a genre – while I enjoy making street photographs, the resulting images are eye candy – an initial buzz but beyond that fairly disappointing.
For me, the most interesting photographers can take this street aesthetic and way of working, and twist it to their own means to create a coherent body of work. Names and projects that spring to mind are Lars Turnbjork – 'The Office', Jonas Bendiksen – 'Satellites', and Tim Davis – 'My Life in Politics'.
As for my own work – I'd like to try and bring back some of the spontaneity that I had in my work and find some middle ground between the more static landscapes and the energetic street scenes. I've also been attempting to work out a more organic way of working when it comes to projects – going into places and situations with a looser agenda, and letting the work emerge in a more organic manner. I'm hoping that it will enable me to produce some series that are less literal and that are underpinned by a more personal viewpoint.
The images aren't from a specific project, but have been pulled together from 4 years of sporadic shooting on the streets with a Hasselblad X-Pan camera. Ben is an avid, experienced photographer and longstanding member of HCSP.
In addition to the gallery images Ben has provided us with some of his thoughts on his photographic journey:
The Streets Are My Training Ground
An essay by Ben Roberts
When I was younger, I was really into sport, specifically a little known sport called Orienteering. Although it has relatively low participation compared to say football or tennis, the standard of competition at the top end of the sport is fierce. For those of you who don't know what orienteering involves (and I'm guessing that's quite a few of you), it's effectively a navigation race through harsh terrain - forests, mountains, marshes and moors. Each competitor must find their way between set points using a map and compass. To compete in the upper echelons of this sport, not only do you have to be able to run fast (the top guys can run 10km on the track in around 30 minutes) but you need to be able to navigate while still running at speed. To prepare myself for competitions I was constantly training - be it running, circuit training, or doing navigation exercises in terrain to perfect my map reading.
How does this relate to my photographic practise? Well here's the thing - I feel like I need to 'train' to keep myself honed for photography, and the streets are my training ground.
I developed an interest in street photography while I was travelling through China and SE Asia in early 2004, and while my early efforts were pretty lame, i continued to make work on the streets throughout two years studying photography on the south coast of England, sometimes travelling to London for a couple of days to shoot, and on occasion making short journeys to Madrid or Barcelona to immerse myself in the vibrant streetlife and great light that can be found in Spain. However, whereas 2 years ago a good part of my portfolio was dedicated to candid street photography, now there is not a single image in my 'book' that is from this genre. but I still shoot street once or twice a month to keep me on my toes.
I've made 4 trips to Spain to make photographs in the last 4 years. A short review of the results of these trips perhaps shows how shooting on the streets has informed my photographic practise, but also how the emphasis in my work has shifted as I have become a more informed and thoughtful photographer, as opposed to the less focussed but perhaps more impulsive photographer that I was back in 2004.
________________________________________________________________________
Barcelona, September 2004

Barcelona, September 2004

Madrid, May 2006

Madrid, May 2006

So my first two visits to Spain were spent walking the streets for hours, trying to capture 'decisive moments', looking at how light worked, finding out about apertures and shutter speeds and zone focusing – building up an understanding of my equipment and learning how to work quickly and efficiently. I carried on practising these techniques back in England, but at the same time I was starting to question the value of these images; I felt that I was ultimately just collecting tokens, medals. Although at a surface level some of the images were attractive, there was no story or thought process, and ultimately they didn't sit together as a body of work.
What changed for me? It was a combination of factors really: First of all I had a couple of really excellent tutors at college who introduced me to amongst others Mitch Epstein, Alec Soth, Joel Sternfeld – photographers who seemed to have an ability to construct and sequence photographs in an almost lyrical fashion. Secondly, I began to network (on a regular basis via the internet) with a group of photographers who like me were inquisitive, hardworking and willing to share ideas, inspirations and discoveries. This network has since been like a second college for me. Third, I started working as an assistant and researcher for documentary and portrait photographer Zed Nelson – being able to observe how he worked on a shoot (from conception to execution) was particularly valuable. Finally, I took the opportunity in London to undertake a variety of different assignments; in the last two years I have shot fashion look books, weddings, live music, band promos, festivals, office parties, interiors of hotels and bars, a poster for a feature film, corporate portraits, a fetish club, dog racing, and rugby, football and cricket fans. I'm convinced that I can take something positive away from every assignment that I get, and apply it to my personal practise in some form or other. Plus shooting such a diversity of jobs allowed me to apply my techniques from street photography in different environments and contexts.
I knew that I wanted to start making images that were more contemplative in nature. On my next two visits to Spain, in the autumn and winter of 2007, the work that I was producing reflected this. Although I didn't completely neglect the more traditional street aesthetic, I found myself shooting more landscapes and more finely structured images.
Granada, September 2007 – from the series 'The Brick Business'

Granada, September 2007 – from the series 'The Brick Business'

Barcelona, November 2007 – from the series 'The Brick Business'

Barcelona, November 2007 – from the series 'The Brick Business'

Granada, September 2007 – from the series 'The Brick Business'

Granada, September 2007 – from the series 'The Brick Business'

In some ways, my methods of working remained faithful to my previous visits – many miles of walking with my camera. Many of the skills that I had picked up from the shooting in the street were being used – an understanding of compositional elements and a habit of scanning the landscape around me in an effort to see as much as possible and pick up on small details that could make for a better image.
My viewpoint on 'Street Photography' now is still slightly confusing for me, but I am getting comfier with the role it plays in my own professional practise. Shooting street keeps me in 'photographic fitness' for the more important projects that I am working on. Having a good eye for the moment, and keeping my instincts fine tuned to react to that moment is of great importance when shooting portraits, while understanding light and composition has been of great benefit in all my work. However, while I will still go out and shoot on the streets (almost without any purpose) once or twice a month, the resulting images will add to little more than a 'greatest hits' collection without any real coherence as a body of work. This is one of my big problems with 'street photography' as a genre – while I enjoy making street photographs, the resulting images are eye candy – an initial buzz but beyond that fairly disappointing.
For me, the most interesting photographers can take this street aesthetic and way of working, and twist it to their own means to create a coherent body of work. Names and projects that spring to mind are Lars Turnbjork – 'The Office', Jonas Bendiksen – 'Satellites', and Tim Davis – 'My Life in Politics'.
As for my own work – I'd like to try and bring back some of the spontaneity that I had in my work and find some middle ground between the more static landscapes and the energetic street scenes. I've also been attempting to work out a more organic way of working when it comes to projects – going into places and situations with a looser agenda, and letting the work emerge in a more organic manner. I'm hoping that it will enable me to produce some series that are less literal and that are underpinned by a more personal viewpoint.
thanks mark and other admins for choosing me for this gallery.
there's a link to the edit of 12 images here:
www.flickr.com/gp/93306489@N00/4A21s9
and the original edit of 23 images here:
www.flickr.com/gp/93306489@N00/udpM4D
as for the essay, i'll put my hands up and say that it is totally self indulgent. however hopefully it has some interesting stuff in there for people to take away.
b
there's a link to the edit of 12 images here:
www.flickr.com/gp/93306489@N00/4A21s9
and the original edit of 23 images here:
www.flickr.com/gp/93306489@N00/udpM4D
as for the essay, i'll put my hands up and say that it is totally self indulgent. however hopefully it has some interesting stuff in there for people to take away.
b
james1hour
Posted 17 years ago
ben, I wish we could see more of the brick business, but the regular public does not have permission...sigh
I also wondered if you could give us insight on the camera/film you used for the panorama shots. It is really something unique.
I also wondered if you could give us insight on the camera/film you used for the panorama shots. It is really something unique.
James -
you can see my Brick Business Project on my website here:
benrobertsphotography.com/galleryoverview/images/the_bric...
I used a Hasselblad XpanII for these images. It's a rangefinder that takes 35mm film and shoots across the best part of two frames using a traditional shutter as opposed to the 'swing lens' seen on cameras such as the Horizon. So this means that you have more chance of capturing a moment i guess. It is however limited to F4.0 at it's widest, and has a fastest shutter speed of 1/1000sec.
i bought this camera in 2004, and struggled with it immensely for the first two years that I owned it. It's really hard to shoot a good panoramic - i've put probably almost 250 rolls through this camera and have a handful of good shots... it can be really depressing...
normally i shoot with fuji Pro400H colour negative film with this camera.
you can see my Brick Business Project on my website here:
benrobertsphotography.com/galleryoverview/images/the_bric...
I used a Hasselblad XpanII for these images. It's a rangefinder that takes 35mm film and shoots across the best part of two frames using a traditional shutter as opposed to the 'swing lens' seen on cameras such as the Horizon. So this means that you have more chance of capturing a moment i guess. It is however limited to F4.0 at it's widest, and has a fastest shutter speed of 1/1000sec.
i bought this camera in 2004, and struggled with it immensely for the first two years that I owned it. It's really hard to shoot a good panoramic - i've put probably almost 250 rolls through this camera and have a handful of good shots... it can be really depressing...
normally i shoot with fuji Pro400H colour negative film with this camera.
mort*
Posted 17 years ago
Nice one Ben and Admins. The complementary essay is definitely the way forward with these gallery sets.
Gary Hubbs | The Scale Gallery
Posted 17 years ago
Edited by Gary Hubbs | The Scale Gallery (member) 17 years ago
I agree with having the essay included. While I've never been big on work that depends on an essay/text for meaning, it is nice to have some insight into the work.
(edit: I guess what I'm trying to say is, if the image engages me, and there is material there for me to read that provides insight into the work, I always appreciate it. If the image does not grab me first or it appears hollow, unresolved or superficial, however, rare is the case in which an essay can sway me. A load of artspeak cannot compensate for content.)
Nice work, Ben.
(edit: I guess what I'm trying to say is, if the image engages me, and there is material there for me to read that provides insight into the work, I always appreciate it. If the image does not grab me first or it appears hollow, unresolved or superficial, however, rare is the case in which an essay can sway me. A load of artspeak cannot compensate for content.)
Nice work, Ben.
james1hour
Posted 17 years ago
thanks ben,
the pano is a very curious and unique way of shooting street photography. I could see it being a frustrating medium to learn how to have strong compositions within the frame.
I second about wanting to see them larger.
Also that brick business essay is beautiful
the pano is a very curious and unique way of shooting street photography. I could see it being a frustrating medium to learn how to have strong compositions within the frame.
I second about wanting to see them larger.
Also that brick business essay is beautiful
.. greg ..
Posted 17 years ago
Hey Mark: the link to the slideshow on the main page doesn't seem to be working, could you check that?
BennehBoy
Posted 17 years ago
And on a completely unrelated note Ben is selling some prints (well, hi-res downloads so you can make your own), maybe he'd also be happy to take orders on the panos.....
www.flickr.com/photos/bedlam/3009244808/
Please don't blame Ben for me posting this here, I know he'd be mortified if he knew I was doing this.
www.flickr.com/photos/bedlam/3009244808/
Please don't blame Ben for me posting this here, I know he'd be mortified if he knew I was doing this.
matt_robinson
Posted 17 years ago
hey ben, thanks for sharing the essay, really. indulgent maybe, but helpful and inspirational without a doubt. cheers.
griff le riff
Posted 17 years ago
good read. thanks ben.
essays with galleries is def the way forward for building valuable resources for aspiring street shooters in here.
essays with galleries is def the way forward for building valuable resources for aspiring street shooters in here.
bitwalk
Posted 17 years ago
Great essay! Very interesting read. I'd also like to see larger versions of the set. 500px pano on a 24 inch screen is tiny. :-)
Dr Karanka
Posted 17 years ago
hah, last night around the time that this was uploaded I was dreaming about shooting panoramic... how weird...
MezzDavies
Posted 17 years ago
Really very good. Cheers. (Personally there were some shots in the set of 23 that I'd have used to replace some of those that made the 12. But that's just my opinion.)
I agree with The Scale Gallery in that if i like, or am intrigued by, the photos I'll read (and in fact, want there to be) some accompanying words. But if I have to read the words to "get" the pictures - fuck that. In this instance it really worked and I add my commendation to the other's about an essay accompanying a gallery as being the way forward.
Cheers again - this place really is an education. (Christ, that sounded cheesy.)
I agree with The Scale Gallery in that if i like, or am intrigued by, the photos I'll read (and in fact, want there to be) some accompanying words. But if I have to read the words to "get" the pictures - fuck that. In this instance it really worked and I add my commendation to the other's about an essay accompanying a gallery as being the way forward.
Cheers again - this place really is an education. (Christ, that sounded cheesy.)
MezzDavies
Posted 17 years ago
Oh yeah I'd just like to say that I've really liked all the galleries. Thanks to the photographers for their stuff and admins for sorting it all out.
Ta.
Ta.
Great pictures and a good read....
I was interested that your success rate is so low with the xpan....why do you think that is, is composition just more difficult in this format? Also you mention that the xpan is limited to f4 ... is this only in panoramic mode or is this also the case when you use it as a 35mm rangefinder?
I was interested that your success rate is so low with the xpan....why do you think that is, is composition just more difficult in this format? Also you mention that the xpan is limited to f4 ... is this only in panoramic mode or is this also the case when you use it as a 35mm rangefinder?
Dr Karanka
Posted 17 years ago
On street photography lending itself to being a collection of prizes. I get this feeling more with Earthlings by Kalvar (message: humans are bizarre if you look twice) and SideWalk by Mermelstein (message: NYC is a desperate battleground) than with Winogrand's Public Relations... not sure if it's something that has changed with time due to the fact that people now talk about street photography as a genre, while when Winogrand shot such a thing didn't really have a name...
About the link on the front page: it's a permissions issue. It works fine for me, so it's something to do with the guest pass thing. Maybe Ben can make the 12 set public or something.
mysterious riddle [deleted]
Posted 17 years ago
"However, while I will still go out and shoot on the streets (almost without any purpose) once or twice a month, the resulting images will add to little more than a 'greatest hits' collection without any real coherence as a body of work. This is one of my big problems with 'street photography' as a genre – while I enjoy making street photographs, the resulting images are eye candy – an initial buzz but beyond that fairly disappointing."
Should be shortened to "i enjoy making street photographs". There's nothing wrong with 'no purpose' once in a while. Not that im one to talk about photo demons and the likes. Look at it like productive meditation. At the end of the day your images from your sets/essays/books will be removed from their original contexts and collected into a 'greatest hits' anyway, so why fear it? If you still enjoy it and get a buzz from it then do it when you can. To quote willy wonka "a little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men"
ps - nice work and nice honest essay..
Should be shortened to "i enjoy making street photographs". There's nothing wrong with 'no purpose' once in a while. Not that im one to talk about photo demons and the likes. Look at it like productive meditation. At the end of the day your images from your sets/essays/books will be removed from their original contexts and collected into a 'greatest hits' anyway, so why fear it? If you still enjoy it and get a buzz from it then do it when you can. To quote willy wonka "a little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men"
ps - nice work and nice honest essay..
benroberts
Posted 17 years ago
i've made all the images in those two sets public now so people should be able to see the larger images in slideshow.
links again:
edit of 12 images here:
www.flickr.com/gp/93306489@N00/4A21s9
and the original edit of 23 images here:
www.flickr.com/gp/93306489@N00/udpM4D
@dave sinclair - F4.0 is dictated by the lens, so i'm stuck with it.
links again:
edit of 12 images here:
www.flickr.com/gp/93306489@N00/4A21s9
and the original edit of 23 images here:
www.flickr.com/gp/93306489@N00/udpM4D
@dave sinclair - F4.0 is dictated by the lens, so i'm stuck with it.
shveckle
Posted 17 years ago
"This is one of my big problems with 'street photography' as a genre – while I enjoy making street photographs, the resulting images are eye candy – an initial buzz but beyond that fairly disappointing."
@bennybedlam, Is this what you think of yourself when you do it. Or is this what you think of anyone who has ever done so called "street photography". Robert Frank, Garry Winogrand, Martin Parr, you know, etc.
@bennybedlam, Is this what you think of yourself when you do it. Or is this what you think of anyone who has ever done so called "street photography". Robert Frank, Garry Winogrand, Martin Parr, you know, etc.
benroberts
Posted 17 years ago
its what i think of myself.
the photographers that you mention are great.
perhaps its how i feel about contemporary street photography. i mean, can you name a 'street photographer' working now who has really built upon and furthered the genre beyond what winogrand was doing in the 60's and 70's?
i can't spend my every waking hour shooting street photography, and have no desire to do so; i mean, what is the point in me trying to emulate winogrand every day? talk about a futile task.
the photographers that you mention are great.
perhaps its how i feel about contemporary street photography. i mean, can you name a 'street photographer' working now who has really built upon and furthered the genre beyond what winogrand was doing in the 60's and 70's?
i can't spend my every waking hour shooting street photography, and have no desire to do so; i mean, what is the point in me trying to emulate winogrand every day? talk about a futile task.
unfoldingdrama
Posted 17 years ago
"I felt that I was ultimately just collecting tokens, medals. Although at a surface level some of the images were attractive, there was no story or thought process, and ultimately they didn't sit together as a body of work."
This is the comment that particularly resonated with me and having looked at your series before reading the essay, was similar to the thoughts that I had going through the set myself. Looking at the set I felt, while each image was strong in and to itself, there was no underling link between the image apart from the fact that they were all shot on the same camera. While this is interesting, I too feel that 'The Brick Business' has a lot more to give. I also thin that 'street photography' can have a narrative, but it i difficult to achieve give the dynamic nature of people and the street.
"i mean, can you name a 'street photographer' working now who has really built upon and furthered the genre beyond what winogrand was doing in the 60's and 70's?"
I believe I was through your comment in this group that I became aware of the greater body of Trent Parke's work and his work with distant figures and reflected light has certainly added something to the genre in my opinion. Does that also mean that the genre can not be furthered?
This is the comment that particularly resonated with me and having looked at your series before reading the essay, was similar to the thoughts that I had going through the set myself. Looking at the set I felt, while each image was strong in and to itself, there was no underling link between the image apart from the fact that they were all shot on the same camera. While this is interesting, I too feel that 'The Brick Business' has a lot more to give. I also thin that 'street photography' can have a narrative, but it i difficult to achieve give the dynamic nature of people and the street.
"i mean, can you name a 'street photographer' working now who has really built upon and furthered the genre beyond what winogrand was doing in the 60's and 70's?"
I believe I was through your comment in this group that I became aware of the greater body of Trent Parke's work and his work with distant figures and reflected light has certainly added something to the genre in my opinion. Does that also mean that the genre can not be furthered?
shveckle
Posted 17 years ago
I don't know,
Constantine Manos? He is not Winogrand,
Martin Parr? he is not like Winogrand
Harry Gruyaert? not Winogrand
Trent Park? not Winogrand
Bruce Gilden? not winogrand
Davidson? not winogrand
Many many more to me all different all not Winogrand.
I think they have all built on street photography since the 60s. I also see a bit of the deadpan action coming into some of the street photography now is a difference.
If you want to think it is all the same, well that is something a lot of people do towards things they just are not that into.
Just like the way people say, all Reggae music sounds the same, all Rap sounds the same, all Rock n Roll sounds the same, all Jazz sounds the same, etc.
All deadpan portraits and 6 x 7 modern deadpan landscape photos look all the same. etc.
If one really likes something, Reggae, Jazz, Rap, Rock, Street photography etc, one is fascinated by all the nuances of the genre and sees many differences.
When one is not quite as interested sometimes one just thinks it is all the same. Same happens with other cultures of people. Some will look at another culture of people and think they all look alike while when of that culture or interested in that culture or has lived amongst another culture, one sees the nuances and a lot of differences in looks.
"I can't spend my every waking hour shooting street photography, and have no desire to do so"
There is no reason you should if you do not want to and do not have the desire to. But to say others are wasting their time or to think because you think it is futile everyone else should, is a bit presumptuous.
Constantine Manos? He is not Winogrand,
Martin Parr? he is not like Winogrand
Harry Gruyaert? not Winogrand
Trent Park? not Winogrand
Bruce Gilden? not winogrand
Davidson? not winogrand
Many many more to me all different all not Winogrand.
I think they have all built on street photography since the 60s. I also see a bit of the deadpan action coming into some of the street photography now is a difference.
If you want to think it is all the same, well that is something a lot of people do towards things they just are not that into.
Just like the way people say, all Reggae music sounds the same, all Rap sounds the same, all Rock n Roll sounds the same, all Jazz sounds the same, etc.
All deadpan portraits and 6 x 7 modern deadpan landscape photos look all the same. etc.
If one really likes something, Reggae, Jazz, Rap, Rock, Street photography etc, one is fascinated by all the nuances of the genre and sees many differences.
When one is not quite as interested sometimes one just thinks it is all the same. Same happens with other cultures of people. Some will look at another culture of people and think they all look alike while when of that culture or interested in that culture or has lived amongst another culture, one sees the nuances and a lot of differences in looks.
"I can't spend my every waking hour shooting street photography, and have no desire to do so"
There is no reason you should if you do not want to and do not have the desire to. But to say others are wasting their time or to think because you think it is futile everyone else should, is a bit presumptuous.
yes Lara I am uncultured and ignorant and you are worldly. thankyou for the lessons. i will try to be a better person.
~Joe~
Posted 17 years ago
Laura your passive agressive envy of all the photographers that have continued to move their game along when yours has stalled nevers ceases to amaze me... but this.... it reminds me of when you are in kindergarden and you pull someone's hair to show them you like them....
please, will you and ben just shag and get it over with so we can stop reading such long posts that are more foreplay than fact. I mean how does your husband feel about this?
that being said, ben might not find that much itimacy with you appealing, so instead, please will you just produce some better work so you can stop feeling so much passive agressive envy... i hope this second option might end these tantrum-posts as well.
Ben you know how i feel about this essay, so nuf said.
..
please, will you and ben just shag and get it over with so we can stop reading such long posts that are more foreplay than fact. I mean how does your husband feel about this?
that being said, ben might not find that much itimacy with you appealing, so instead, please will you just produce some better work so you can stop feeling so much passive agressive envy... i hope this second option might end these tantrum-posts as well.
Ben you know how i feel about this essay, so nuf said.
..
absent basin [deleted]
Posted 17 years ago
@shveckle: i wouldn't consider any of those photographers you mentioned to be street photographers.
i think this whole debate boils down to language. some people still view photography through the prism of 'street photography' while others have abandoned the term.
Winnogrand's work has more impact on me when I'm viewing it through his projects rather than looking at his work as 'street photography.'
for me, 'street photography' is virtually impossible to enjoy unless it's presented in a project with thoughtful sequencing.
i think this whole debate boils down to language. some people still view photography through the prism of 'street photography' while others have abandoned the term.
Winnogrand's work has more impact on me when I'm viewing it through his projects rather than looking at his work as 'street photography.'
for me, 'street photography' is virtually impossible to enjoy unless it's presented in a project with thoughtful sequencing.
~Joe~
Posted 17 years ago
Purely for information, not to make a point...
But a recent essay by Magnum Photographer Mark Power
Along the way, of course, come many, many surprises... this is something which I still love about photography - at least the kind of 'street photography (for that is what it is) that I do
I think context is king with this term... and it seems a term alive and well in the magnum vocabulary, but in my opinion it's a term served best with some context to bring out the zest.
..
But a recent essay by Magnum Photographer Mark Power
Along the way, of course, come many, many surprises... this is something which I still love about photography - at least the kind of 'street photography (for that is what it is) that I do
I think context is king with this term... and it seems a term alive and well in the magnum vocabulary, but in my opinion it's a term served best with some context to bring out the zest.
..
@~Joe~, this is so not about some jealousy thing, and of course you are always the one to go super personal with me. I guess I push your buttons, awesome! Don't think I will ever forget your internet etiquette of actually editing my post once, you are literally the only person ever besides spamers in my whole life of being on the internet (some 16 years now) I have ever blocked! So I really do not take any of what you say to me as anything more then you can't hold down your emotions and composure when you are around me.
As to @bennybedlam, my comment was only on his sentence I quoted and the meaning behind it, not on his work. I have always like Ben's photography, especially his non-street photography stuff.
As to @bennybedlam, my comment was only on his sentence I quoted and the meaning behind it, not on his work. I have always like Ben's photography, especially his non-street photography stuff.
LoFiKen
Posted 17 years ago
great work Ben. The essay adds a whole new level to the "crazy kid" of HCSP. Very insightful.
~Joe~
Posted 17 years ago
um... ok Laura. the irony of blocking a person that.... well you know the rest.
..
..
matt_robinson
Posted 17 years ago
@BryanF - Really interesting you say that.
Trent Parke calls himself a street photographer (i saw him talk about a month ago and he said exactly that), but yeah I think he takes 'street' a lot further than arranging people, and adds his own subjectivity and emotion.. which I got a whole lot of from Bens essay.
What's my point? dunno. I think I'm agreeing with you that street means a lot more when its developed with a point of view.
Trent Parke calls himself a street photographer (i saw him talk about a month ago and he said exactly that), but yeah I think he takes 'street' a lot further than arranging people, and adds his own subjectivity and emotion.. which I got a whole lot of from Bens essay.
What's my point? dunno. I think I'm agreeing with you that street means a lot more when its developed with a point of view.
disclaimer: Ben. We have met. You seem a nice guy. I respect that you work in the field that you talk about. You do the work you believe in, and you stand by it.
The opinions i spout here are just that; my opinions, not a statement of fact.
ok?
cool.
I think the pictures are incredibly dull.
The essay(and obviously im no fan of them anyway) reads like a student assignment.
I realise that there is a big movement towards this ultra- bland style of work over the last few years( i blame fine art courses :) ) but i can see nothing in it pictorially to hold my interest at all.
bryan f said : " i think this whole debate boils down to language." ....and maybe thats the problem.
EDIT: Hadnt seen the pictures in the pool. Some of them are quite nice. Was referring only to the ones in this thread.
The opinions i spout here are just that; my opinions, not a statement of fact.
ok?
cool.
I think the pictures are incredibly dull.
The essay(and obviously im no fan of them anyway) reads like a student assignment.
I realise that there is a big movement towards this ultra- bland style of work over the last few years( i blame fine art courses :) ) but i can see nothing in it pictorially to hold my interest at all.
bryan f said : " i think this whole debate boils down to language." ....and maybe thats the problem.
EDIT: Hadnt seen the pictures in the pool. Some of them are quite nice. Was referring only to the ones in this thread.
@~Joe~ uhm what irony? The irony of blocking a person whom I do not trust? Oh and I do not mean psychology, I mean literally blocked here on flickr. I mean it doesn't really help much because I can still see your comments on these discussions as well as you can see mine. It is too bad that it is not a full block where it does render me invisible to you and you invisible to me on flickr. And this would be more for me to be invisible to you because I do not trust your over emotional personality towards me. I don't care about seeing your posts in general except when it comes to me, I feel you lose your sense of composure when you respond to me especially since you went in and edited my post in a discussion here in this group.
LoFiKen
Posted 17 years ago
AlanSmithee2008
"I realise that there is a big movement towards this ultra- bland style of work over the last few years"
although i sort of agree with the statement... this style is still new to me and i still yet to find it bland, but it's interesting you mention it. these look like photos that could hang in someones wall...
"I realise that there is a big movement towards this ultra- bland style of work over the last few years"
although i sort of agree with the statement... this style is still new to me and i still yet to find it bland, but it's interesting you mention it. these look like photos that could hang in someones wall...
Findo
Posted 17 years ago
I think the shots in the brick series are bland in the same way that Mozart is bland, which is not at all. There is a wonderful classical structure, balance and elegance to them, they seem so simple, yet there is an intricacy there.
AlanSmithee2008
Posted 17 years ago
findo@ "I think the shots in the brick series are bland in the same way that Mozart is bland,"....so, to about 99% of the population of the world then :) ...and everybody under 60 who isnt gay.
.....and what does mozart have to do with anything anyways?
Ken@ "these look like photos that could hang in someones wall... " absolutely. What i say is always just my opinion, and there are countless people who would get off on this stuff. One thing Ben does seem to do well is take a technically good picture. These just lack something other than that for me. soul maybe. They seem like they were made, i dunno, mechanically, if that makes any sense.
.....and what does mozart have to do with anything anyways?
Ken@ "these look like photos that could hang in someones wall... " absolutely. What i say is always just my opinion, and there are countless people who would get off on this stuff. One thing Ben does seem to do well is take a technically good picture. These just lack something other than that for me. soul maybe. They seem like they were made, i dunno, mechanically, if that makes any sense.
John Armstrong aka John Legweak
Posted 17 years ago
I just looked at all the galleries on Ben's site and I was impressed. I responded to the portraits the most, but I think Brick Works is a great series and didn't find it boring in the least. I also liked Sense of Place, which contains the pano shots people have been talking about. None of the pictures knocked my socks off (if people still say that), but I really liked the look and hope he does more. My opinion for what little it's worth.
benroberts
Posted 17 years ago
@alansmithee (aka jon gladdy)
no worries. i'm aware of the limitations of the brick business pictures; a diret quote from the essay above:
As for my own work – I'd like to try and bring back some of the spontaneity that I had in my work and find some middle ground between the more static landscapes and the energetic street scenes.
as for the essay reading like a student essay - well i did make a disclaimer for self indulgency!! it wasn't originally written for public consumption, more for me to get a grip on my own photographic practise and try to improve. and hell, we could all do with improving, right?
When it comes to people's taste in photography - If people don't like my work these days, hell, I can let it slide. it doesn't really matter. I enjoy what i do, and every so often people pay me to do it. what more could i ask for?
no worries. i'm aware of the limitations of the brick business pictures; a diret quote from the essay above:
As for my own work – I'd like to try and bring back some of the spontaneity that I had in my work and find some middle ground between the more static landscapes and the energetic street scenes.
as for the essay reading like a student essay - well i did make a disclaimer for self indulgency!! it wasn't originally written for public consumption, more for me to get a grip on my own photographic practise and try to improve. and hell, we could all do with improving, right?
When it comes to people's taste in photography - If people don't like my work these days, hell, I can let it slide. it doesn't really matter. I enjoy what i do, and every so often people pay me to do it. what more could i ask for?
Findo
Posted 17 years ago
findo@ "I think the shots in the brick series are bland in the same way that Mozart is bland,"....so, to about 99% of the population of the world then :) ...and everybody under 60 who isnt gay.
.....and what does mozart have to do with anything anyways?
My point is that many people find Mozart boring, but that's only because they don't understand it - it's not exactly easy to understand like pop music - there is a musical language there that unfortunately is no longer being taught in many schools, but that's another rant for another time.
When you understand and are familiar with some degree of musical language you realise Mozart's not boring, but can be breathtaking. I use Mozart, because I'm primarily a musician, and I like analogies, but also because he epitomises the classical ethos and aesthetics which I think Ben has used in this series.
I have a theory that the reason most people don't like art stuff is because they don't understand it. People like what they know.
silly property [deleted]
Posted 17 years ago
writing about photography is like talking about music - it can be done but i wouldn't advise it - Ralph Gibson
i tend to agree with Mr. Gibson and yet i really enjoyed reading Ben's essay. don't really give a damn on the quality of it, but I like his photography and was interested to see how he related to it and so forth. simple.
@alansmithee2008 - just a bad argument all the way around man . Besides the resent presidential election, do many people here give a damn about the popular vote? if so then go get cracking on some flower macros! That's taking it to the extreme Alan but it's where that idea ends up much of the time.
@Findo - your anology not only anchors the work with a relationship but implys that someone's reason for disliking it is due to their lack of understanding. To me, your argument threatens to become a judgment upon the "uneducated masses". Look - there's not enough time to learn all the languages in the world - and by languages I don't mean French, German etc... but photographic, literary, musical (the languages of our frail existence) - but that in no way means that you cannot be moved by or appreciate said piece - or hate it. If it stirs emotion, on any level, it is being understood - I feel. Attempting to understand the "why" and "why not" is noble in my opinion - but not a necessity.
i tend to agree with Mr. Gibson and yet i really enjoyed reading Ben's essay. don't really give a damn on the quality of it, but I like his photography and was interested to see how he related to it and so forth. simple.
@alansmithee2008 - just a bad argument all the way around man . Besides the resent presidential election, do many people here give a damn about the popular vote? if so then go get cracking on some flower macros! That's taking it to the extreme Alan but it's where that idea ends up much of the time.
@Findo - your anology not only anchors the work with a relationship but implys that someone's reason for disliking it is due to their lack of understanding. To me, your argument threatens to become a judgment upon the "uneducated masses". Look - there's not enough time to learn all the languages in the world - and by languages I don't mean French, German etc... but photographic, literary, musical (the languages of our frail existence) - but that in no way means that you cannot be moved by or appreciate said piece - or hate it. If it stirs emotion, on any level, it is being understood - I feel. Attempting to understand the "why" and "why not" is noble in my opinion - but not a necessity.
~Joe~
Posted 17 years ago
Shveckle i'm only going to ask you one more time. I say this clearly so you take it no other way than an unemotional fact.
stop polluting this thread with things irrelevant to it, it's already been noted off-line that you're reducing what should be a valuabe thread into a rubbish bin.
..
stop polluting this thread with things irrelevant to it, it's already been noted off-line that you're reducing what should be a valuabe thread into a rubbish bin.
..
mort*
Posted 17 years ago
As a relatively neutral onlooker, I think that attack on Shveckle was obnoxious and uncalled for. There is obviously some beef there beyond this thread but all I saw here was Shveckle trying to defend the street genre a little.... in a street photography group. Shock / horror!
For what it's worth, I agree about the limitations of street photography and like Bryan, get much more out of it when it's arranged in a series and has some kind of narrative.
For what it's worth, I agree about the limitations of street photography and like Bryan, get much more out of it when it's arranged in a series and has some kind of narrative.
i like mozart (without understanding his music)
"understand" may not be the most useful word, but I'm a loss to find another. Perhaps recognition has something to do with.. I'm not saying you need to understand music theory or anything like that, but sometimes it takes a little time to "learn how to hear', much like how it often takes time to "learn to see". If you think about popular classical music, most likely, a lot of people who "hate" opera actually don't mind listening to Nessun Dorma when it is played on the TV - they recognise it, or perhaps the Ride of the Valkyrie.. It's a bit like how a lot of people will look at HCB and love it, but not give Winogrand the time of day.. recognition - people like what they know.
your anology not only anchors the work with a relationship but implys that someone's reason for disliking it is due to their lack of understanding.
Well, yes, I think this is often the case, Though granted, not always.
I'm more inclined to acknowledge that I probably don't understand, or am not familiar with a certain style or artist if they are recognised by their peers than to just write it off as boring.
To me, your argument threatens to become a judgment upon the "uneducated masses"
Actually it's a judgement on the education system that is trying to eradicate the arts from the classroom. I was blessed, at primary school to have teachers who passed on their love of art and music in ways that helped us to love them too. I'm not sure that happens much anymore.
Look - there's not enough time to learn all the languages in the world - and by languages I don't mean French, German etc... but photographic, literary, musical (the languages of our frail existence) - but that in no way means that you cannot be moved by or appreciate said piece - or hate it. If it stirs emotion, on any level, it is being understood - I feel.
Sure.. I would agree that if you're moved by it, then you're understanding it.(But you don't have to be moved to understand it either) But what I perceive is that most people are only familiar with "popular" (and this includes classical music and art as well as contemporary pop) stuff, and therefore anything outside of that known quantity is often just disregarded. I mean, how many "that's not street" threads have we seen here?
I'm not sure I've explained my hypothesis very well.. and I appologise for derailing the thread here Ben, but it's all kind of conected... and marginally more interesting that the personal squabble that Jo and Lara need to take outside ;)
I'm 32, heterosexual, and enjoy Mozart....and film scores.
I'm straight and I even love Britten's music! *gasp*
My wife was teaching a class on classical music at one of her schools, and played some movie themes and the kids told her that wasn't "classical" music because it wasn't boring :D (and John Williams steals all of his good tunes anyway... Jaws theme? Straight from Dvorak's New World Symphony!)
Søren Bock-Larsen
Posted 17 years ago
FWIW
I often find the X-pan format "gimmickly" (is that at word) and boring after the first initial "wow-cool-format"-impression.
I like the use of the format in this set - somehow avoiding the gimmick-factor, but rather using the format to explore the potential for different expressions - especially the "diptych"-work is interesting.
I often find the X-pan format "gimmickly" (is that at word) and boring after the first initial "wow-cool-format"-impression.
I like the use of the format in this set - somehow avoiding the gimmick-factor, but rather using the format to explore the potential for different expressions - especially the "diptych"-work is interesting.
I am curious, if photos separately are street photography, then if they are put together in a book or essay type deal, then they not street photography? Some of the photographers I picked above is because of their books and essays of how the photos are put together.
benroberts
Posted 17 years ago
the key would be to ask these photographers if they consider themselves to be 'street photographers'.
it's a dumb term really, and it's even dumber that we are still debating it.
wouldn't it be much easier just to agree/disagree on who's photography we like or dislike without getting in a big tizz about whether it's 'street photography' or not?
i like much of trent parkes work. i also like alec soth's portraits, the grainy afghanistan based photojournalism of Balazs Gardi, and the beautiful, shimmering fashion images produced by Paolo Roversi. When someone asks me 'what kind of photographer' i am - i prefer just to say I'm a 'photographer'. I don't like being pigeon holed, and I think many of these guys wouldn't like to be pigeonholed either.
I (and i think many working photographers) are productive people - I have my 'boring spanish landscapes' but I've also been shooting carnivals and nightclubs with an aesthetic that flies in the face of what i shoot at other times.
i think it's good to be able to enjoy loads of different kinds of photography and rejoice in the variety that our medium affords us. on that note, i'll give you this to watch:
inmotion.magnumphotos.com/essay/la-nuit
cheers
ben
it's a dumb term really, and it's even dumber that we are still debating it.
wouldn't it be much easier just to agree/disagree on who's photography we like or dislike without getting in a big tizz about whether it's 'street photography' or not?
i like much of trent parkes work. i also like alec soth's portraits, the grainy afghanistan based photojournalism of Balazs Gardi, and the beautiful, shimmering fashion images produced by Paolo Roversi. When someone asks me 'what kind of photographer' i am - i prefer just to say I'm a 'photographer'. I don't like being pigeon holed, and I think many of these guys wouldn't like to be pigeonholed either.
I (and i think many working photographers) are productive people - I have my 'boring spanish landscapes' but I've also been shooting carnivals and nightclubs with an aesthetic that flies in the face of what i shoot at other times.
i think it's good to be able to enjoy loads of different kinds of photography and rejoice in the variety that our medium affords us. on that note, i'll give you this to watch:
inmotion.magnumphotos.com/essay/la-nuit
cheers
ben
Debating genres is a stupid exercise. People take photographs. Some of those photographs are interesting, others are not, regardless of whatever genre they get put it. Genres are useful for looking up books at the library, and that's about it.
Also, I too ... thought ... the attack on shveckle ... was kind of ... random? yes... it was... also... poorly written...
Also, I too ... thought ... the attack on shveckle ... was kind of ... random? yes... it was... also... poorly written...
China Plate
Posted 17 years ago
I especially like Barcelona 2004. What a very nice shot.
The brick project looks like it has potential too, although I would question whether it is a set of 'street photography' and more of a landscape project from the same mold as say Edward Burtynsky?
Maybe this is less of a 'set' and more of a 'pick' from Ben's portfolio?
To have half the set random panoramas and the other half of the set the beginning of a project doesn't really make sense to me but I am new here so maybe I have got the wrong end of the stick?
An inspiration for some of you who doubt the power of the
panorama is this gentleman's work :
www.lasthein.se
Jens Olaf Lasthein.
Especially interesting is his White Sea Black Sea series, which has recently been made into a book.
I thought Schvekle's analogy about music and being 'into' something was very interesting,
Shame that her thoughts have been misunderstood.
The brick project looks like it has potential too, although I would question whether it is a set of 'street photography' and more of a landscape project from the same mold as say Edward Burtynsky?
Maybe this is less of a 'set' and more of a 'pick' from Ben's portfolio?
To have half the set random panoramas and the other half of the set the beginning of a project doesn't really make sense to me but I am new here so maybe I have got the wrong end of the stick?
An inspiration for some of you who doubt the power of the
panorama is this gentleman's work :
www.lasthein.se
Jens Olaf Lasthein.
Especially interesting is his White Sea Black Sea series, which has recently been made into a book.
I thought Schvekle's analogy about music and being 'into' something was very interesting,
Shame that her thoughts have been misunderstood.
Findo
Posted 17 years ago
I think the brick shots are part of Ben's essay, not the gallery selection..?
~Joe~
Posted 17 years ago
enough of the schveckle/joe show please. opinions are important, but find another place for them.
this is Ben's show, so in the spirit of my original comment, please continue to offer them in a healthy way and in that direction.
this is Ben's show, so in the spirit of my original comment, please continue to offer them in a healthy way and in that direction.
@ Joe
"this is Ben's show, so in the spirit of my original comment, please continue to offer them in a healthy way and in that direction"
Unless I missed one, your original, or at least first, comment on this thread was as below, which I don't really see as "healthy".
Why make things so personal? Do you behave like this on the Magnum blog?
"Laura your passive agressive envy of all the photographers that have continued to move their game along when yours has stalled nevers ceases to amaze me... but this.... it reminds me of when you are in kindergarden and you pull someone's hair to show them you like them....
please, will you and ben just shag and get it over with so we can stop reading such long posts that are more foreplay than fact. I mean how does your husband feel about this?
that being said, ben might not find that much itimacy with you appealing, so instead, please will you just produce some better work so you can stop feeling so much passive agressive envy... i hope this second option might end these tantrum-posts as well."
"this is Ben's show, so in the spirit of my original comment, please continue to offer them in a healthy way and in that direction"
Unless I missed one, your original, or at least first, comment on this thread was as below, which I don't really see as "healthy".
Why make things so personal? Do you behave like this on the Magnum blog?
"Laura your passive agressive envy of all the photographers that have continued to move their game along when yours has stalled nevers ceases to amaze me... but this.... it reminds me of when you are in kindergarden and you pull someone's hair to show them you like them....
please, will you and ben just shag and get it over with so we can stop reading such long posts that are more foreplay than fact. I mean how does your husband feel about this?
that being said, ben might not find that much itimacy with you appealing, so instead, please will you just produce some better work so you can stop feeling so much passive agressive envy... i hope this second option might end these tantrum-posts as well."
flat5
Posted 17 years ago
"stop polluting this thread with things irrelevant to it, it's already been noted off-line that you're reducing what should be a valuabe thread into a rubbish bin."
are we reading the same thread?
are we reading the same thread?
silly property [deleted]
Posted 17 years ago
Findo - we are very close to the saying the same thing then - I agree with you on your points of education especially, and is a condition of very human proportions. popular opinion is a law of averages, with emphasis on average - agreed. your analogy panged a topic that's been rolling through my brain like a wet towel in a dryer is all :) and I am very pleased to be forming an opinion (what I love most about HCSP is the discussions and how it helps me gain a better understanding of my relationship to my own work and beyond to others)... I don't find it off topic at all - we are exploring ideas born of Ben's work and essay - born of our reactions to it and how it is presented. Balancing the popular with the not so popular is a razors edge - for Ben maybe it's combining his "boring landscapes" with his "more energetic street work" ?
@china plate & Schvekle - I enjoyed Schvekle's analogy too. once you've discovered a secret language in one thing you must come to the conclusion that in all probability - that potential is in all things.
@china plate & Schvekle - I enjoyed Schvekle's analogy too. once you've discovered a secret language in one thing you must come to the conclusion that in all probability - that potential is in all things.
@alansmitthee- I blame fine art courses
I think of this style of work (ie the brick series) as a descendent of the New Topographics. Their previous generation of photographers were focussed on craft (which, as you've said, Ben does well)- the participants in this, though were closely associated with academia. It's understandable that an approach that relies on a more detached, maybe cognitive response is going to develop and propagate its practice through this kind of environment.
It's never going to give us those visceral kicks that we all crave though... I suspect that Ben acknowledges this, which may be why he's presented a more rounded picture of his work, for consumption within the context of this specific group.
I think of this style of work (ie the brick series) as a descendent of the New Topographics. Their previous generation of photographers were focussed on craft (which, as you've said, Ben does well)- the participants in this, though were closely associated with academia. It's understandable that an approach that relies on a more detached, maybe cognitive response is going to develop and propagate its practice through this kind of environment.
It's never going to give us those visceral kicks that we all crave though... I suspect that Ben acknowledges this, which may be why he's presented a more rounded picture of his work, for consumption within the context of this specific group.
smiling arch [deleted]
Posted 17 years ago
Edited by smiling arch (member) 17 years ago
I enjoyed reading Ben’s essay. I very much related to his comments about “I have become a more informed and thoughtful photographer, as opposed to the less focussed but perhaps more impulsive photographer that I was back in 2004.”
I think Ben’s photography has improved but it was always good. I remember his good, early stuff at HCSP.
Likewise I take more time and thought over shots than then, not least because I now work with a dSLR, and not with a compact as I did then. Like him, I also work the same way - hours of walking, constant scanning of the street and landscape around me.
I also agree, to a degree, with Ben when he writes “street photography can feel like “ultimately just collecting tokens, medals.”
But I am not sure I agree with the conclusion that he appears to have reached.
Ben has gone down the traditional route of choosing themes and building series of work, no doubt informed by his view that “resulting (street) images will add to little more than a 'greatest hits' collection without any real coherence as a body of work.”
Some of the shots from ‘The Brick Business’ are excellent. But I also think maybe Ben has lost something in that moving very much into the recognised style of contemporary photography, he may be losing some of the interesting spontaneity and exuberance of his earlier stuff - particularly people.
I reject any notion that street photography need just be tokens, medals. I also don't think the themes route is the way you have to go. There can be poetry in chaos.
I have been looking recently at the photography of Ed van der Elsken. He was an excellent Dutch photographer and he took lots of street shots in Amsterdam (and other places). He had a depth to him - he was also a film maker. You could say that he was unsatisfying - many pix of people dressed in the fashion of the time - but his doubtless ‘one offs’ in fact have became an interesting, if undeclared project, ‘Amsterdam, especially Dam Square, 195x to 198x’ www.f56.net/nw/artists.php?lang=en&artist=12&show...
And I also personally see myself as part of an (unrecognised) collective of people photographing various themes, especially street London. I also see my work now and under my previous Flickr name, Clive Power, as part of a project with various themes even if a lot of it is taken opportunistically.
Street lives.
Clive Power
I think Ben’s photography has improved but it was always good. I remember his good, early stuff at HCSP.
Likewise I take more time and thought over shots than then, not least because I now work with a dSLR, and not with a compact as I did then. Like him, I also work the same way - hours of walking, constant scanning of the street and landscape around me.
I also agree, to a degree, with Ben when he writes “street photography can feel like “ultimately just collecting tokens, medals.”
But I am not sure I agree with the conclusion that he appears to have reached.
Ben has gone down the traditional route of choosing themes and building series of work, no doubt informed by his view that “resulting (street) images will add to little more than a 'greatest hits' collection without any real coherence as a body of work.”
Some of the shots from ‘The Brick Business’ are excellent. But I also think maybe Ben has lost something in that moving very much into the recognised style of contemporary photography, he may be losing some of the interesting spontaneity and exuberance of his earlier stuff - particularly people.
I reject any notion that street photography need just be tokens, medals. I also don't think the themes route is the way you have to go. There can be poetry in chaos.
I have been looking recently at the photography of Ed van der Elsken. He was an excellent Dutch photographer and he took lots of street shots in Amsterdam (and other places). He had a depth to him - he was also a film maker. You could say that he was unsatisfying - many pix of people dressed in the fashion of the time - but his doubtless ‘one offs’ in fact have became an interesting, if undeclared project, ‘Amsterdam, especially Dam Square, 195x to 198x’ www.f56.net/nw/artists.php?lang=en&artist=12&show...
And I also personally see myself as part of an (unrecognised) collective of people photographing various themes, especially street London. I also see my work now and under my previous Flickr name, Clive Power, as part of a project with various themes even if a lot of it is taken opportunistically.
Street lives.
Clive Power
clive
i'm not really seeing much substance in what you've written.
"I also see my work now and under my previous Flickr name, Clive Power, as part of a project with various themes even if a lot of it is taken opportunistically."
what exactly does that mean? when i look at your stream i see a bunch of pictures with no connection to each other. even when i really stretch my imagination i struggle to see how you can call this a project. you've kind of faintly criticised me for taking what you see as "the traditional route of choosing themes and building series of work..."
if you can spell out for me a better way of furthering my photography other than putting in a whole heap of time and effort building up a cohesive body of work, i would love to hear it
i really don't see how a few half arsed days of taking pictures on the streets and them posting them on flickr (!) can be compared to the 12 days of shooting that went into "the brick business" or the 6 weeks of shooting (over two years) that have gone into "higher lands".
i'm not really seeing much substance in what you've written.
"I also see my work now and under my previous Flickr name, Clive Power, as part of a project with various themes even if a lot of it is taken opportunistically."
what exactly does that mean? when i look at your stream i see a bunch of pictures with no connection to each other. even when i really stretch my imagination i struggle to see how you can call this a project. you've kind of faintly criticised me for taking what you see as "the traditional route of choosing themes and building series of work..."
if you can spell out for me a better way of furthering my photography other than putting in a whole heap of time and effort building up a cohesive body of work, i would love to hear it
i really don't see how a few half arsed days of taking pictures on the streets and them posting them on flickr (!) can be compared to the 12 days of shooting that went into "the brick business" or the 6 weeks of shooting (over two years) that have gone into "higher lands".
smiling arch [deleted]
Posted 17 years ago
Edited by smiling arch (member) 17 years ago
Ben, Thanks for your view.
To distil what I said, I was disagreeing with you in your argument (as I take it) that street generally is cheap thrills. I think a good street photographer e.g. van der Elsken did make valid work. He was also cohesive, i.e. Amsterdam street 50s-80s, but he also need not have been so to be good. Ongoing cheap thrills can be good!
As it happens, I have spent weeks on my photography too (and won an Olympus E3 into the bargain for it from the V&A museum). It may be opportunistic (although not all) i.e. I don't go out looking for a particular shot but I know that where I live, the poorest part of London, will deliver by just walking around for a few hours.
So, accidentally, maybe I build a project called Newham (or Leeds or cemeteries etc). But I also don't mind if people think they have "no connection to each other"as you write. I think the question is whether they are good photos or not.
Thinking about my favourite photos, a lot of them are just a single image from a specific photographer or maybe a few from the same person but unconnected shots. They are also generally street shots and they usually aren't from a series. There are sets I like as well but I don't usually remember them in the way I remember an single image.
You write street is no longer in your portfolio ("now there is not a single image in my 'book'").
Much as I like your projects, I think stolen street shots by you, with your enhanced photographic knowledge, could be as good as your other stuff that is more planned.
And I also think they would be a good addition - even if not 'cohesive' - to just thinking themes and projects.
To distil what I said, I was disagreeing with you in your argument (as I take it) that street generally is cheap thrills. I think a good street photographer e.g. van der Elsken did make valid work. He was also cohesive, i.e. Amsterdam street 50s-80s, but he also need not have been so to be good. Ongoing cheap thrills can be good!
As it happens, I have spent weeks on my photography too (and won an Olympus E3 into the bargain for it from the V&A museum). It may be opportunistic (although not all) i.e. I don't go out looking for a particular shot but I know that where I live, the poorest part of London, will deliver by just walking around for a few hours.
So, accidentally, maybe I build a project called Newham (or Leeds or cemeteries etc). But I also don't mind if people think they have "no connection to each other"as you write. I think the question is whether they are good photos or not.
Thinking about my favourite photos, a lot of them are just a single image from a specific photographer or maybe a few from the same person but unconnected shots. They are also generally street shots and they usually aren't from a series. There are sets I like as well but I don't usually remember them in the way I remember an single image.
You write street is no longer in your portfolio ("now there is not a single image in my 'book'").
Much as I like your projects, I think stolen street shots by you, with your enhanced photographic knowledge, could be as good as your other stuff that is more planned.
And I also think they would be a good addition - even if not 'cohesive' - to just thinking themes and projects.
far discussion [deleted]
Posted 17 years ago
"So, accidentally, maybe I build a project called Newham (or Leeds or cemeteries etc). "
An 'accidental project' is a contradiction in terms. And calling a project 'Leeds' is surely about as well formed a concept as calling a project something like 'Nikon FM2', don't you think?
(I don't want you to feel attacked, but I really don't think you've properly thought this through).
An 'accidental project' is a contradiction in terms. And calling a project 'Leeds' is surely about as well formed a concept as calling a project something like 'Nikon FM2', don't you think?
(I don't want you to feel attacked, but I really don't think you've properly thought this through).
smiling arch [deleted]
Posted 17 years ago
Edited by smiling arch (member) 17 years ago
Alex, thanks.
Ok so let me rephrase as build 'a project that could be called ...' You can also do stuff as one-offs that afterwards may be seen as having been an accidental project.
All of our photos could ultimately be 'projectised' e.g. everything I have posted here could be put in a set called 'Clive Power Flickr photos 2005 - 2008', but I don't take my shots with a project in mind (except rarely).
And I think looking to develop themes or projects can not be best route (although such a route looks pretty compulsory to get into galleries - paltryphotography.blogspot.com/).
That route can lead to a long mellow concept album with lots of filler songs rather than a series of discordant, but all good, singles. My favourite albums are singles collections and are where the songs, although by the same band, are pretty disparate.
Ok so let me rephrase as build 'a project that could be called ...' You can also do stuff as one-offs that afterwards may be seen as having been an accidental project.
All of our photos could ultimately be 'projectised' e.g. everything I have posted here could be put in a set called 'Clive Power Flickr photos 2005 - 2008', but I don't take my shots with a project in mind (except rarely).
And I think looking to develop themes or projects can not be best route (although such a route looks pretty compulsory to get into galleries - paltryphotography.blogspot.com/).
That route can lead to a long mellow concept album with lots of filler songs rather than a series of discordant, but all good, singles. My favourite albums are singles collections and are where the songs, although by the same band, are pretty disparate.
clive, i think of a project as something you do deliberately, with intent..... you spend alot of time thinking about it because there's something you want to say or record...it should have some depth to it.
my odd flower pics could be made into a series but they'd certainly not be a project.
my odd flower pics could be made into a series but they'd certainly not be a project.
senor evez
Posted 17 years ago
Great to see Ben Roberts stuff up as a gallery.
I really like 'the Brick Business' as a project because it looks good and it makes me think. I can feel those places in the shots. They are honest and sensitively composed.
I don't give a toss if it's street, cohesive, fashionable etc. etc and I think there seems to be a scary amount of jealousy in this thread.
So.....his work is good; he's told us, very modestly, where he's at; he's worked hard;
I can certainly learn from that.
I really like 'the Brick Business' as a project because it looks good and it makes me think. I can feel those places in the shots. They are honest and sensitively composed.
I don't give a toss if it's street, cohesive, fashionable etc. etc and I think there seems to be a scary amount of jealousy in this thread.
So.....his work is good; he's told us, very modestly, where he's at; he's worked hard;
I can certainly learn from that.
mort*
Posted 17 years ago
@mixatal: If you don't own it already, I'd highly recommend getting a copy of Robert Frank's "The Americans". It was a huge eye opener for me in terms of how a themed project can completely transcend a collection of single images.
guarded ocean [deleted]
Posted 17 years ago
Edited by guarded ocean (member) 17 years ago
An interesting essay- for me, the freedom of strolling or visiting events etc will open up opportunities for perhaps more cohesive projects. You will find themes that you may want to explore later in more detail. I started wandering the local seafronts- initially to take a break from my screaming kids or to clear my head from the office. Although I am largely limited in terms of geographical mobility, I am starting to get a body of work together which is developing themes on leisure and British eccentricity. This is going to take time and I have little pretensions about any financial success or career changing potential. I do it because I enjoy the challenge, am rewarded when things click and for the release. Works like Kalvar's 'Earthlings' and Epstein's 'Recreation' are pretty varied in individual picture content and I try and keep this in mind when I start beating myself up for not concentrating on a single theme / idea.
John Armstrong aka John Legweak
Posted 17 years ago
To me projects are about shooting with a purpose. It could be just to get a certain shot at a certain time, which makes it a project of one image, but more often it leads to a series, collection, set (whatever term you want) of images.
Very often the photographer will be consciously aware of their purpose as they shoot, but not always. I think it is possible for a person to have a purpose that they are not conscious of, at least not at the time they are pursuing it, but that they may become conscious of sometime later. Thus I believe that a photographer can be working on a project (or maybe multiple projects) that they are not aware of at the time but may be able to recognize if they look back over their work and search for their hidden purpose(s) by asking themselves, why did I take that picture, or better, why do I keep taking pictures like that. (BTW it’s possible that others who know the photographer well or at least have seen a lot of their work might be able to contribute answers of their own to these questions and maybe even recognize a purpose that the photographer doesn’t see.)
If this examination produces results, and the photographer believes they have detected an unconscious purpose in their work, they can take a shot at editing with the goal of pulling out the individual images which best accomplish that purpose. And if they get somewhere with the editing, they will have a project, or at least the basis for one. They may feel that it is “done”, or they may feel that, now that they have recognized their up to then unconscious purpose, they want to purpose it further in a more conscious way. Either way, they may want to put their understanding into words that will serve as an introduction to the project.
Thus I do believe that it is possible for a photographer to have a project – a true project, not a trivial My Photos 2007-2008 type one – that they were not aware they were working on when they did the shooting but can become aware of later and bring to full fruition at a later time.
Very often the photographer will be consciously aware of their purpose as they shoot, but not always. I think it is possible for a person to have a purpose that they are not conscious of, at least not at the time they are pursuing it, but that they may become conscious of sometime later. Thus I believe that a photographer can be working on a project (or maybe multiple projects) that they are not aware of at the time but may be able to recognize if they look back over their work and search for their hidden purpose(s) by asking themselves, why did I take that picture, or better, why do I keep taking pictures like that. (BTW it’s possible that others who know the photographer well or at least have seen a lot of their work might be able to contribute answers of their own to these questions and maybe even recognize a purpose that the photographer doesn’t see.)
If this examination produces results, and the photographer believes they have detected an unconscious purpose in their work, they can take a shot at editing with the goal of pulling out the individual images which best accomplish that purpose. And if they get somewhere with the editing, they will have a project, or at least the basis for one. They may feel that it is “done”, or they may feel that, now that they have recognized their up to then unconscious purpose, they want to purpose it further in a more conscious way. Either way, they may want to put their understanding into words that will serve as an introduction to the project.
Thus I do believe that it is possible for a photographer to have a project – a true project, not a trivial My Photos 2007-2008 type one – that they were not aware they were working on when they did the shooting but can become aware of later and bring to full fruition at a later time.
Nicely put John. I think this is possible - and it is precisely this approach that I am using for new work at the moment - going out to make photographs with no specific goal, and then looking at what I have shot to try and find strands of continuity. However - while I think that this "aimless" way of making photographs can be great for discovering unexpected directions in ones own work, following these strands up with concerted, focussed shooting is the only way to realise the full potential of these strands, and turn them into a fully engaging body of work.
- in that respect i see "The Brick Business" as being unfinished and in need of many more elements to create a truly interesting and involved body of work.
- in that respect i see "The Brick Business" as being unfinished and in need of many more elements to create a truly interesting and involved body of work.
Findo
Posted 17 years ago
Ben, when you find these themes, how do you keep from forcing shots?
I find that if I've got a couple of shots that I thinhk might be able to be developed into a project, I end up just taking crap shots of similar things..
I find that if I've got a couple of shots that I thinhk might be able to be developed into a project, I end up just taking crap shots of similar things..
Alex,
Hey, that's a great idea. I hereby dub my aimless photographic wandering The FM2N Project. Wow it feels great to finally be a photo essayist.
Hey, that's a great idea. I hereby dub my aimless photographic wandering The FM2N Project. Wow it feels great to finally be a photo essayist.
@Findo - I suspect Ben has much more success than my experiences, but I think you probably have to accept that you will take crap shots of similar things.
You might take 100 shots of, say, cars, trees & electricity pylons, but only one will work. But that's fine; you only need the one...
You might take 100 shots of, say, cars, trees & electricity pylons, but only one will work. But that's fine; you only need the one...
John Armstrong aka John Legweak
Posted 17 years ago
A couple points relating to the last few comments.
First, finding a theme (or any repeating characteristic) in your work is not the same as discovering the purpose of your work. It may put you on the track, but there's more work to do. It's a step forward to realize that you take a lot of pictures of cars or beaches/seasides or empty parking lots or people walking away from each other or whatever, but to really get somewhere - to really find your project - you have have to explore why you take those pictures, what attracts you to them, what feeling are you trying to capture, what insight are you trying to express, and so on. This will not necessarily be easy, and may take quite a while as your ideas evolve and change.
Second, while there might well be a potential project lurking in your "aimless shooting", it's not going to become real until you pull it out by reflecting on what your doing, editing to distill down what that is, and, most likely (as Ben stresses) continuing the effort in a more it it in a more conscious way.
First, finding a theme (or any repeating characteristic) in your work is not the same as discovering the purpose of your work. It may put you on the track, but there's more work to do. It's a step forward to realize that you take a lot of pictures of cars or beaches/seasides or empty parking lots or people walking away from each other or whatever, but to really get somewhere - to really find your project - you have have to explore why you take those pictures, what attracts you to them, what feeling are you trying to capture, what insight are you trying to express, and so on. This will not necessarily be easy, and may take quite a while as your ideas evolve and change.
Second, while there might well be a potential project lurking in your "aimless shooting", it's not going to become real until you pull it out by reflecting on what your doing, editing to distill down what that is, and, most likely (as Ben stresses) continuing the effort in a more it it in a more conscious way.
mort*
Posted 17 years ago
Interesting stuff John.
Hin talks about similar methods in the pause to begin interview:
pausetobegin.com/podcasts/pausetobegin_hinchua.m4v
Hin talks about similar methods in the pause to begin interview:
pausetobegin.com/podcasts/pausetobegin_hinchua.m4v
smiling arch [deleted]
Posted 17 years ago
Edited by smiling arch (member) 17 years ago
It's a shame Mossley, as I was going to thank-you for your mentioning of 'New Topographics' which led to an interesting read.
So I wasn't going to mention again how such a collection needs to be disparate to be interesting.
Otherwise you end up with something like the 'Ramones Greatest Hits' - the same song, even though it's quite a good one, over and over again; like your photography - moody Greater Manchester (my homeplace, as well) that never was times many, many. I think it a good example of how cohesiveness can make all the pix blur into each other. But that's just my view.
@Mort Thanks, I've flicked though The Americans in photo bookshops and I certainly agree that it a very good example of how 'theme' or 'project' street photography can look good and indeed add value through its intention. But I don't think it's the only way that street stuff can look good.
So I wasn't going to mention again how such a collection needs to be disparate to be interesting.
Otherwise you end up with something like the 'Ramones Greatest Hits' - the same song, even though it's quite a good one, over and over again; like your photography - moody Greater Manchester (my homeplace, as well) that never was times many, many. I think it a good example of how cohesiveness can make all the pix blur into each other. But that's just my view.
@Mort Thanks, I've flicked though The Americans in photo bookshops and I certainly agree that it a very good example of how 'theme' or 'project' street photography can look good and indeed add value through its intention. But I don't think it's the only way that street stuff can look good.
benroberts
Posted 17 years ago
@mixatal
you're beginning to sound like a bit of a fool.
is there really any need to start criticizing other peoples photography?
you're beginning to sound like a bit of a fool.
is there really any need to start criticizing other peoples photography?
krameroneill
Posted 17 years ago
mixatal: As far as I can tell, you introduced your photography into this discussion. That's different.
flat5
Posted 17 years ago
so first you say that you'd rather have a collection of singles instead of an albumn then you go on to say everything sounds the same on a greatest hits collection. It was disparate and no there is zero variety.
I think it's safe to say at this point that you have nothing to add to this topic. Just hang back and read what developes. You may/may not learn something but at this rate, you're definitely not going to get anything positive out of it.
Sent From a Phone
I think it's safe to say at this point that you have nothing to add to this topic. Just hang back and read what developes. You may/may not learn something but at this rate, you're definitely not going to get anything positive out of it.
Sent From a Phone
smiling arch [deleted]
Posted 17 years ago
Edited by smiling arch (member) 17 years ago
flat - read it again - I said I think single collections are best and such should also have variety and not just sound like the same song repeated.
Mossley suggested liking singles albums is the view of a pompous buffoon (Alan Partridge - a British comedy character). I responded.
I'm very sure much won't be added if people don't comprehend what they read but I agree not much further light is going to emanate here on this issue.
Mossley suggested liking singles albums is the view of a pompous buffoon (Alan Partridge - a British comedy character). I responded.
I'm very sure much won't be added if people don't comprehend what they read but I agree not much further light is going to emanate here on this issue.
photoniceye
Posted 17 years ago
Singles instead of an album to me is like saying "I like collections of quotes instead of novels." How can you really appreciate something when it doesn't have any context to the things around it. Most of my favorite albums are cohesive. Can you really truely appreciate Pink Floyd if you just listened to a greatest hits instead of Dark Side of the Moon, or Animals?
No different than photography. Projects that put together as a project either in post editing, or intentionally shot as a project are going to be much stronger than an collection of photos with no relation to each other. I would also go so far to say that projects need to be thought of before shooting. Albums like Dark Side of the Moon aren't put together accidentally. They're put together quite intentionally. Same with photography books like The Americans. It is possible for a photographer to go through old photos to find some sort of cohesive message. But the project will only feel complete once some very intentionally shot photographs are added.
Then again I could be talking out of my ass here, I've never shot anything that could even be remotely considered a project.
No different than photography. Projects that put together as a project either in post editing, or intentionally shot as a project are going to be much stronger than an collection of photos with no relation to each other. I would also go so far to say that projects need to be thought of before shooting. Albums like Dark Side of the Moon aren't put together accidentally. They're put together quite intentionally. Same with photography books like The Americans. It is possible for a photographer to go through old photos to find some sort of cohesive message. But the project will only feel complete once some very intentionally shot photographs are added.
Then again I could be talking out of my ass here, I've never shot anything that could even be remotely considered a project.